Shamus: Good afternoon and thank you for joining The iBuyer.com Podcast. As always, I’m your host Shamus Samerdyke. And today we have PJ O’ Neil with us. Now he’s a former GM from Opendoor, Denver and he’s been kind enough to come on the podcast and dive into how Opendoor specifically works. Some of the things that he’s seen over the two years that he spent there, he just recently left. But like I said, he’s being kind enough to come in and give us a peek, sort of behind the curtain and let you guys see a little bit deeper of how Opendoor specifically does their transactions and how they’ve really helped to revolutionize this entire iBuyer industry. So welcome to the podcast PJ.
PJ: Thank you.
Shamus: Yeah. So, again, you know, we really appreciate you taking the time to come on and chat with us. I know you’re crazy busy right now with everything you’ve got going on. But I figured we can just sort of hop right in and maybe you can give us just a quick 30, 45 second background on your time and experience spent with Opendoor.
PJ: Yeah, so I joined Opendoor back in 2017 and helped launch, when I joined, we were in two markets and about to launch there and joined as a launch general manager, which meant I was traveling around the country helping us launch new markets. So I helped to get the San Antonio market off the ground, Nashville, Minneapolis, and then Denver. So got a lot of experience, sort of scaling the business and understanding the nuances of each of those individual markets. And then here in Denver I stayed on as the GM here and from Denver, love this town, so stayed on and ran the market here for a little bit after that. It’s a really good experience. Watched us grow from two markets to 21 markets over my time there. And just sort of got to witness how transformative a product like this was for so many sellers out there across the United States.
Shamus: That’s awesome. And so that’s actually, I didn’t realize that you were a part of the launch team as well. So I mean, talk about really having to know all the ins and outs. I mean going from city to city, helping them go from zero to fully functioning, it’s got to have been pretty interesting.
PJ: Yeah, it was amazing and cool to see how different real estate markets behave across the Market, you know, across the country. You know, in some markets, no homes have basements, for example. Here in Denver, virtually every home has a basement. So how you value those homes varies pretty measurably from place to place.
Shamus: And with the basics basement specifically, then you’ve got, not only does it have a basement, but is it a finished basement? Is it partially finished? Is there a bathroom? You’ve got all these different things that go into it. Right?
PJ: Exactly! That’s exactly right.
Shamus: Being born and raised in Florida, never an issue I’ve had to deal with personally.
PJ: You do have sinkholes in Florida.
Shamus: You have sinkholes and I’ve seen some pretty gnarly, you know, sinkhole activities on homes where home looks perfect from the front and you go around the back and half of the back is dang near underground. So no, absolutely. So, speaking of specific differences, let’s jump in to the differences in some of the different markets you were saying. Let’s start on like, we’ll start at a 30,000 foot and we’ll dive in a little bit deeper. So you got to see the launch of many of some of their major markets, right? Just off the top of your head, anything that particularly sticks out to you that you saw that was, let’s start with similar among all of those different markets?
PJ: Yeah. In all those markets, sellers value the certainty of a sale to Opendoor, right? We review the ability to close on your time, on your timeline. We’re giving you a competitive fair market price for your home. And we’re letting you pick your close date. So sellers are really valuing that certainty everywhere we are. And that’s part of the reason we’ve been so successful in all of the markets we’ve launched.
PJ: And so that’s the main similarity. And then a lot of the way we operate is similar too, right? We value homes using the same sort of methodologies from place to place. There may be some variations on the margin, but for the most part we’re using a lot of the same methodologies to come up with a fair market value for the home. And then the core of that is using a comp based model where we look at what other homes in the area have sold for and come up with a price for your home as a seller, similarly to how an agent would come up with a list price today. So, I’d say the valuation methodology is pretty similar from market to market.
Shamus: So real quick, just on the valuation specifically, because I know this is a question we at ibuyer.com get a lot as you know, where are people coming up with their values, right? Is it all algorithm-based? Is there any human interaction at all? Um, when you’re creating these offers, take the fees and whatnot out of it, there’s the initial offer price. That’s a big question we get. And my understanding is that with Opendoor, you guys have sort of a little bit of both model, you know, largely algorithm based, but there’s also some human connection with that as well. Could you dive into that?
PJ: Yeah. So we rely on humans to make decisions that algorithms can’t make. So an example of that is, you know, as you’re picking comparable homes to find the value of the seller’s home, an algorithm isn’t good at finding what other comparable homes are. Right? Algorithms are good at looking at pictures and determining if a home looks similar or not. So we’re relying on humans to pick the comps themselves. And then the algorithm is helping our pricing team determine, okay, this comp has 200 square feet more than the seller’s home. How should we value those 200 feet more? So we rely on algorithms to tell us that. But ultimately it’s someone on our pricing team making the call and our pricing team, these are people with local expertise. They’ve been former real estate appraisers, they’ve been former real estate agents, they understand these markets very well and have a good sense for what homes are worth.
Shamus: Okay. So just to sort of sum it up in layman’s terms, basically anything that is subjective is determined by sort of a human hand, human eye, anything that’s totally objective, you know when it comes down to particular square foot, additional bedroom, anything like that is then supplemented by the algorithm. Is that right?
PJ: Yeah, that’s a great way to sum it up. Yeah, that sums it up very nicely.
Shamus: Now are there any markets that you know of that are fully algorithm based or is that even possible yet for us?
PJ: No, I don’t know if that’s ever going to be a possibility. And again, the human touch is important to ensure that sellers are getting the best as possible.
Shamus: I would agree with that.
PJ: Well, algorithms are important. Yeah. We want to make sure that the offers are fair and are the true value that we think that home will demand on the open market.
Shamus: Okay. So now with those offers, you know, obviously Opendoor is known for, it’s trying to make as fair an offer as possible, but at the end of the day, it’s a for profit company. Right? So there’s got to be some margin in there. So could you dive into, because this is a question that we get a lot when we’re dealing with Opendoor is, you know, Hey, I got an Opendoor offer and it was, let’s say it’s $200,000, but then there’s 6% in fees and then there’s a 1% convenience fee. Could you sort of break down how some of that, how they get to some of those numbers and what that means for Opendoor and for the seller themselves?
PJ: Yeah. So our goal is not to make money really and the difference between our purchase price and our sales price. The goal is to make money on the fee we charge. So the fee is anywhere, it ranges, but typically somewhere between 6 and 10%, 6 and 8% is usually the average. And remember, if you’re selling a home, you’re usually paying a listing agent and the buyer’s agent. So most people think of 6% to sell a home. We’re charging a fee normally between 6 and 8%. And that’s how we’re making our money. So that fee covers all of our costs. So when we buy a house, we’re taking ownership of it, we’re paying utility bills on that home, we’re paying people to go clean that home periodically. And so, we have to cover those costs. And then when we go to resell that home, we often are paying a buyer’s agent a commission. So we’re paying that cost.
And then when we need to cover all of our sort of risk, right? So if we buy a house, we’re predicting how long we’re going to own that house. And so the fee helps to compensate us for all of that risk involved in taking ownership of the home. And so that risk might be less in the springtime when it’s a hot sellers’ market in Denver. Opendoor can charge a lower fee. That risk might be higher if a market is, you know, the real estate market in a given city is flattening or softening in some way, right? If we think the home is actually going to depreciate over the course of our ownership, we have to charge a higher fee to compensate for that. And so, all of those things sort of come into play as we’re thinking about settling that fee and Opendoor again, is only making its money on that fee we charge to our sellers.
Shamus: Okay. So that makes a lot of sense. And I think that that’s where a lot of the confusion comes from is, you know, people see again, let’s go with that $200,000 example. They offered $200,000 and they say, hey, you know, there’s going to be no real estate commissions and you know, there’s not going to be no additional fee or no closing costs, things like that involved. However, then they see the fee structure and they get a little thrown off. But at the end of the day, that’s where you guys have to work in, like you said, your risk and your profit because at the end of the day it’s a for profit company and you are making up in convenience and time what you’re losing in a few extra bucks at the end of the day.
PJ: Yeah, exactly. As a seller, you’re paying for a certain level of certainty that this is a sale that is going to go through it, right? Opendoor isn’t going to cancel, fall through on the contract, like a 20% of contracts do on the open market. Opendoor is alleviating you from maybe paying two mortgages if you have to sell your house after you bought another house. So, if you value some of that certainty, if you value that convenience, it’s a really good option.
Shamus: Now, what I thought would be really kind of cool just to, because we’ve got you here is for everyone listening, especially you sellers out there who were considering maybe using one of the national iBuyers, Opendoor specifically is if we could walk through a mock transaction, right? So say I’m the seller, obviously you’re coming in representing Opendoor, let’s go through the steps and see how Opendoor would handle that. Are you alright with that?
PJ: Yeah, definitely. This is great. It’s a really great experience from my perspective.
Shamus: Okay, perfect. So let’s say I’m in, let’s take Denver for example. I don’t know the market quite that well, but I’ll rely on your expertise. Let’s say I’ve got a house that is valued at, let’s say again, let’s stick with the $200,000 because that makes it easy Math. Valued at $200,000, I just got a job offer on the East coast so I’ll be moving to Florida and I have to move in 30 days and I either have to make the decision, I’m going to either rent or buy a new house and pay two mortgages and, or pay rent and pay this mortgage. Okay? So where do we start? I submit my property on either iBbuyerr.com or on directly to Opendoor, right? What happens next?
PJ: Yeah. So after you’ve submitted your offer requests, you’ll be asked questions like how many beds and baths does your property have? You know, has your kitchen been remodeled in the last five years? Questions like that to help Opendoor come up with a true value of the home. And so the more truthful you are in answering those questions, the more Opendoor will be able to give a true value for that home. We give you that offer. We tell you how much we’re willing to pay for the house and what the fee will be. You can decide if that’s acceptable as soon as you receive it. At that point you’ll schedule a home assessment where an Opendoor rep will come out, take a look in your home and determine what’s needed to get your place ready for the market. So this would be the same thing a real estate agent would do.
Shamus: Hold on, let me pause you right there real quick because I just want to dive into a couple of those things. First thing, the offer that we receive, is it negotiable?
PJ: No, it is not negotiable. If you think Opendoor missed something in the valuation, you’re welcome to provide them with additional information to see if that changes anything. But again, the goal is to get a true fair market value. So if you think Opendoor may have missed a comp, we’ll show you the comps we use in most markets. Do you think we missed one? Feel free to let your customer rep know and we can take a second look, but they are not negotiable.
Shamus: Got you. And then, the next thing that you said is, assuming that price is acceptable or you’re willing to go ahead and accept that price and makes sense, you guys schedule the Opendoor assessment, so you have a rep that comes out. Now, is this like a home inspection where he’s going to go in the attic and up on the roof and all of that as well?
PJ: Yeah. That’s what you should expect. So this would be, you know, a real estate agent. Think of a real estate agent walking through your home to determine what needs to happen to the house before it’s ready to list. Right? We’re not talking major improvements. We’re talking about maybe replacing carpet with really bad stains or patching walls where there might be holes. These are the things that Opendoor inspectors are looking for. You know, ensuring that the furnace is in working order, the AC unit is working, but the roof doesn’t have any leaks. Those are the things the Opendoor rep is looking for. If to the extent we find those things, we priced set out and we do that work for you after we’ve closed on the home. So if the roof needs to be replaced, we’ll tell you, you know, at closing, you’ll need to credit us the amount of money it’ll cost for us to replace the roof. And we’ll take care of those repairs and then we’ll get it put right back on the market. And then at that point you’re ready to move on to your next chapter of your life. Go take your job down in Florida. And now, it’s our responsibility to sell that home.
Shamus: Okay, so let’s say we schedule our home assessments. So we’ve decided, you know, we think the house is worth 240. You guys come back and say, Hey, based on the comps and everything we’ve looked at, we’re willing to offer you 225, let’s just say as a number. Right? Plus you have your associated fees and whatnot, you’re going to walk away with, let’s say 210. My math is good there. That sound about right?
PJ: Yeah. Maybe the after fees, somewhere maybe between 200 and 210.
Shamus: Between 200 and 210. So we’ve agreed, okay, willing to take it. I got to move in 30 days, you know, I don’t have to fix anything. I don’t have to do anything. So we have the assessment come or the inspector, the home assessment, home inspector, do you have a name for them specifically?
PJ: Yeah, we think of it as a home sort of project manager or an Opendoor inspector.
Shamus: Opendoor inspector. The inspector shows up and let’s say, you know, you mentioned being as truthful as possible on the initial questionnaire. Let’s say maybe, you know, we didn’t mention or we, you know, we didn’t mention that we had, let’s say an extra finished bathroom in our basement. So say there’s something that’s additional that you guys find, could that change the price, potentially?
PJ: Yeah, that could potentially change it. We rarely have people understate how many bathrooms, usually you might accidentally overstate how many bathrooms you have.
Shamus: So let’s go the other way now and say, to us it’s a finished bathroom, but really it’s, yeah, it’s like a urinal with a curtain, let’s say. And you guys see, well that’s not quite a finished bathroom. What happens?
PJ: Yeah. In that case we’ll say, hey, in addition to some of the repairs we’ll need to move forward, we need to adjust the price that we’re paying, right? Because Opendoors offer assumed that you had a fully finished bathroom in the basement. Upon inspection, it appears like it probably isn’t. And so in that case, we need to lower our purchase price by $2,500 or so along those lines. And so again, I encourage anyone telling us information about your home, make sure you’re as straightforward and as truthful as possible because then we won’t experience any of those issues.
Shamus: Right. And that’s the last thing you want is to already get that number. Okay. I’m going to walk away with, let’s say it’s 210, great! And they show up and they realize that maybe you embellished a little bit and now you’re renegotiating again at this point and say, unfortunately we can’t give you what we originally said. Let’s save everybody the trouble and be as upfront and truthful as possible upfront. Right?
PJ: Yeah. And Opendoor wants to be very fair. Opendoor again is trying to give you as close to true market value for your home as possible. And the only way we can do that is with all of the right information.
Shamus: Right! Absolutely. So let’s say the inspection goes well, we don’t find anything amiss. All goes well after that, the next step is closing.
PJ: Yeah. The next step is, if everything goes well there, you schedule your closing and then it’s really as simple as that. We can close pretty much as quickly as you need to close. Opendoor gives, you know, I think 10 days is generally the fastest Opendoor likes to close. But it can be as long as three months from the time you’ve gotten your offers. So, Opendoor can close on your timeline and then you’re off. You can close virtually. So, in most cases, Opendoor can send a mobile notary to you on the day of closing, you can close from your dining room table and it’s as simple as that really.
Shamus: Oh, that’s excellent. Again, just adding one more layer of, you know, convenience or moving just a little bit more friction to make it as easy as possible.
PJ: Yeah, exactly.
Shamus: Okay. So now we get to closing and I realized, okay, I’ve got the mobile notary, I’m signing the paperwork in my kitchen table and I’m looking around and all of a sudden I realize I forgot to call the moving company. I don’t want to get rid of any this furniture. I don’t want to move it. Can I just walk out and leave my furniture?
PJ: No. We really have to charge you for anything you leave behind. What Opendoor does offer, which is great, Opendoor offers an optional, late checkout is what they call it.
Shamus: A late checkout, like at the hotel?
PJ: Yeah. If you need additional time to move, you can close. We’ll essentially rent your home back from Opendoor for, you know, up to a week or two while you sort the move. That’s a really good option. You can get your closing funds if you need them to buy your next house and then time.
Shamus: Oh, that’s excellent.
PJ: Really nice. Usually you don’t have the option of doing in sort of a traditional sale.
Shamus: Sure! No, absolutely. Very few people want you in that house any longer than after you hand them the keys at closing. Excellent! Okay. So I’m happy. You guys have done everything you said you were going to do. You’ve purchased the house from me. I was able to stay a few extra days to move all of my furniture. I’m now off to Florida. Now you own this house.
Shamus: Next day after I’m out, what happens in the process then on your end now you own the house, it’s yours, it’s Opendoor’s.
PJ: Yeah. So to the extent we flagged any repairs that we would have to do after we bought the home, we’re starting those right away. The day you’re out, we’ve got our contractors in the home making those repairs that we can get it right back on the market for the next buyer. And so our goal is to get those repairs done well and get them done relatively quickly. We then put a smart lock on the front door, which prospective buyers can access using their Opendoor app. So in the market, we’d now put it on the market or our lock, our smart lock is on the front door. New buyers interested in the house, go to Opendoor or go to the Opendoor app, push a button on their smartphone, the front door and locks. They can tour it on their own time.
Shamus: Do they need to have an agent with them?
PJ: Some have agents, but the beauty of this is you don’t have to have an agent.
Shamus: So they don’t need an agent.
PJ: Yeah, you can go to any Opendoor house seven days a week from 6:00 AM to 9:00 PM, check it out on your own time. If you’re ready to move forward, you can buy directly from Opendoor or we can introduce you to an agent to help you with the transaction or you can use your own agent as whatever you prefer.
Shamus: No, that’s wonderful. Again, it’s just removing the friction as much as possible. See it on your own time. If you would like somebody to help you, they can provide that. You have the option to bring in your own or you can do it yourself, which is beautiful, especially for those people who have maybe, you know, this is your third or fourth home at this point. You move around a lot for work, you know, like, listen, I know the process, I don’t need an agent. Let’s just go ahead and take care of this personally. They can handle that all on their own doing it directly with Opendoor.
PJ: Yeah, exactly. And then in cases where they do want an agent, we’re introducing them to a partner agent of ours. It’s great. And agents have liked it a lot. They don’t have to drive around every Opendoor house with their client. Their clients can go look at the house if they like it, then the agent gets to work doing what they do best and that’s negotiating. That’s contract creation. And so agents have really liked this as well.
Shamus: So on the agent side specifically, because this is something that we see a lot, you know, in our blog and even on some of the different podcasts we’ve done. And I always try and help that at the end of the day, all the national iBuyers, Opendoor and everyone else, it’s changing the way people are doing real estate. Right? At the end of the day, is it factoring out some real estate agents? Yes. I think we’re going to see a lot less of the weekend warriors or my brother’s cousin’s uncle is the realtor sometimes, but for the realtors, the professional realtors that this is what they do, personally I see this as a great opportunity for them to actually increase their total volume of transaction if they’re smart about it. Right?
PJ: Yeah, absolutely. All Opendoor really is and other iBuyers, it’s another tool in your toolkit as an agent. So you now have one, you have another buyer out there who you know, will click and close quickly is functions as an all cash buyer. So, you show up to your first listing appointment with your seller, with your client, and you can come to the table and say, Hey, we can sell today at Opendoor. This is a really great option. Or we can go to the market and do our best to maximize value there. But it’s just one more option for you as an agent and so really powerful.
Shamus: Absolutely. I mean you’re providing that seller a full safety net to say, Hey listen, day one, we know we can get this price for the property. We can get this tomorrow. All you have to do is sign the paper, right? So let’s see if we can’t get a little bit more, maybe we’ll go on the market, we’ll try and maximize it to the best of our ability. But at the end of the day, we always have this offer right in our back pocket that we can go ahead and take. I mean, it’s such a more powerful presentation then. Yes, I think I can sell your home in the next 90 days for X amount. I think so maybe versus, I know I can sell it tomorrow, but let’s see if we can’t maybe get a little bit more and try a different route first. Totally different conversation.
PJ: And the only thing I’ll say about Opendoor is, you do go to market, that does change the value of the home in some ways, right? Because if you then say, “Oh, we couldn’t sell it, we need to go back to Opendoor” The market is opening in some ways, right? The market says actually it’s not worth we think it was worth because it didn’t sell. Unfortunately at that point, Opendoor has reassess the value of the home. And so typically you’re going to get your bigger value. Usually, they offer almost always the offer will go down because again, the market has already signaled to say, “Hey, there are buyers for this home,” and so the offer will go down. And so usually the best way to maximize your value is to request an Opendoor offer before you list. And if it’s a good value, so by all means sell it right there and then, if you don’t feel like it’s fair, then take it to the market. But know that your best option from Opendoor is usually before you’ve listed.
Shamus: That is very important to know because I don’t think most people realize that and we’ve actually seen it in the past, so I’m glad you mentioned this specifically, is that, you know, yes, do you have that offer in your back pocket? 100%. But as you said, you are running the risk now if you decide to go fully to market, that offer might go down. You may end up waiting another 8, 10 months. There’s a lot of uncertainty and things that can go wrong, with Murphy’s law, right? What can go wrong will.
PJ: Yeah. Listing your home is often not a very fun process, right? You have to find an agent, you have to find a listing agent, you’ve got to do all these repairs yourself. You then put it on the market and it sits there. Someone’s ready to look at your house. You’ve got to like rush out during dinner time so that a prospective buyer can look at your home, you’re holding open houses during the weekend, like go under contract and then that contract falls through because couldn’t line up their financing. It’s a pretty painful process. And so sellers love how easy Opendoor is.
Shamus: Yeah, absolutely. I would say based on our own experience and what we’ve seen is that most, I would say the vast majority of anybody that we know or talked to or seeing or help to go through that process of selling to an iBuyer has been extremely happy with the process at the end is that, “I wish I had known about this sooner”, is one of the most common things that we hear.
PJ: Yeah. People really love it and it’s, what I loved when I was at Opendoor was how quickly you realize that you’re affecting real people’s lives. Right? It might be grandparents who don’t have the ability to leave their house at a moment’s notice when someone wants to do a showing. Right? They have lived there 30 years and their grandparents live across or their grandkids live across the country, Opendoor is letting them move across the country to be with their grand kids. Extremely, and so these were these sort of real world stories that I got to experience on a daily basis. And it really drove home to me how valuable something like Opendoor is for sellers. It might not be for everybody, but for the people that value it, it’s an amazing service that never existed before.
Shamus: No, absolutely. And you know, it’s a key point that you just mentioned there too. And what I think some people miss is that at the end of the day, it’s not for everybody. This route is not going to work for everybody. It does not make sense for everybody. But for those people who are in certain situations who maybe have experienced some pain and trying to sell their home in the past or need and, or want to sell quickly for any number of reasons, job relocation, maybe you inherited the home and you live across the country to your point earlier, I mean anything like that, it’s a phenomenal, phenomenal opportunity that just, like you said, never existed before. And I think the more, the longer this goes on, the more homes that get traded this way, bought and sold, the more popular this becomes, the more and more people, to your point that you said that you can help, the more lives you can actually affect in a positive way just by being able to help service a need that’s just not being taken care of on the large scale anymore.
PJ: Yeah. It’s amazing. It really is.
Shamus: I have two more questions and I’ll let you go. The first one being, do you have any, based on your experience and what you’ve seen and maybe some of the pitfalls and whatnot that can go into potentially seeking an Opendoor offer, do you have any specific tips for people who are thinking about submitting their property to iBuyer.com and or Opendoor to help them get the highest value offer the first time?
PJ: Yeah, so we touched on a few of them already, but I’ll recap a couple of the important ones. So one, get an offer before you list your home. You got to get the most competitive offer that way. Be as truthful as you possibly can about the condition of your home and some of the details of your home.
Shamus: Okay. The good, the bad and the ugly.
PJ: Exactly. Give Opendoor everything you know and that’ll allow us to give you the best possible offer. And then, think of Opendoor as a partner in this transaction. So maybe Opendoor isn’t a good fit to sell to directly, but Opendoor wants you to go down the path that that works best for you. So maybe it is listing on the open market. Opendoor can introduce you to a great agent to help you do that. So really think of Opendoor as a partner in your home selling journey. And they are there to help you in any way they can, whether it’s buying the home directly from you or introducing you to someone who can list it on your behalf. It’s really just a great option. So yeah, request an offer before you list, tell us everything you know and don’t be afraid to come to Opendoor early in your home experience and let them sort of guide you.
Shamus: Perfect! Now, last question. Do you want to say anything about, you know, sort of the future of what you’re doing now or where you’re going or anything that you’re working on now?
PJ: No, I think my goal is to stay close to this industry. I think what Opendoor and others are doing is transforming the way people buy and sell real estate. There’s a lot of transformational stuff happening in the space today, which is only helping consumers. It’s only making the lives of property owners and property buyers and sellers, renters, everyone is experiencing this amazing Renaissance today that is making their lives easier and cheaper in a lot of ways. Right? It’s crazy how expensive it is to buy and sell a house and Opendoor is kind of at the forefront of solving a lot of those pain points.
Shamus: Yeah, I would agree completely. Well PJ, I really appreciate you taking the time today and really diving in and letting us sort of peek behind the curtain if you will, into, you know, what it is to sell to Opendoor and what Opendoor does and how, again, like we’ve mentioned multiple times here, they really are changing and revolutionizing the way that people buy and sell their homes. So I really appreciate you taking the time. Do you have any last thoughts? Anything you’d like to leave the listeners with?
PJ: No, thank you for the time. This is great. I’m excited to get the word out there. I really believe in this company and can’t wait to see it continue to succeed.
Shamus: That’s awesome. Again, thank you very much, PJ. Thank you Opendoor for existing. You’ve made my life much better, I can tell you. And as always, please don’t forget to go and check out ibuyer.com. Anywhere you’re listening to the podcast, leave us a rating and a review and we will see you next week. Thank you very much. Goodbye.